Drafters in China

[cpodom]

Does anyone have experience with hiring or training Drafters and Modelers in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1lace>China</st1lace></st1:country-region>?<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

Any type of input would be appreciated.

 

[lfhunter1]

Why would you do this?


lfh

 

[cpodom]

Ifh<?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1ersonName>,</st1ersonName><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

This is not exactly my choice or desire but our company has built its own factory in <st1:country-region><st1lace>China</st1lace></st1:country-region>. Drafting and Modeling <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">WILL[/B] happen there. We are not outsourcing<st1ersonName>,</st1ersonName> these are our own employees and we need to hire and train them to the best of our ability.

At this point there is no debate over why we are doing it.





Curtis

 

[lfhunter1]

Interesting. our company is doing the same thing. To date we have not found any one and will probably send one of us over to train


lfh

 

[cpodom]

Ifh<?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1ersonName>,</st1ersonName><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

I would like to hear more about your experiences<st1ersonName>,</st1ersonName> and your answer is about what I have expected. It would be nice to hear from someone who has sent trainers over to <st1:country-region><st1lace>China</st1lace></st1:country-region>.

Curtis

 

[afusen]

Hi Gentlemen,


I am presently located in Guangdong Province China. I would like to apply for Modeller/Drafter, Please send me e-mail if you are interested ([email protected]).


Best regards,


Rey

 

[pjw]

We also are in the same position. We have setup a factory over there and have a taken on a 'degree qualified' Chinese design engineer to take some of the workload off us in the UK. I am stunned to be honest. If he was one of the best we could get then I think many other companies will also face the same issues of not being able to source good engineers / modellers / drafters who know what they are doing.


Blunt but true.


Phil

 

[conrat]

Just curious, what is the pay rate in China for drafters/designers? And
what is the minimum education level for those you are looking for?

Jim

 

[cpodom]

The Chinese pay rate for Engineers is 1/8 what it is here in the States.


I have no idea what the going rate for a qualified Drafter is, but it is probably less than 1/8.


We have already hired some Engineers and it was very difficult to recruit good people. The best are in high demand and command a much higher rate than many companies thought they would have to pay.


Curtis

 

[conrat]

Curtis,



Thanks, I was wondering because our plant moved most of it's production
to Mexico back in the late nineties. The labor rate was about 1/4
of the cost here, but we have had quite a lot of trouble getting them
up to speed. Also, I have noticed that it is hard to find
qualified people to do the engineering without finding someone north,
but close to the border. Production personnel (ie - welders,
etc...) isn't bad though.



Jim

 

[cpodom]

Conrat,


We have the same situation, we moved a great deal of our production to Mexico in the nineties. But we still have one U.S factory that can out produce (cheaper) Mexico or China.


To this date we have never had a full Engineering team in Mexico as their U.S counterparts were only hours away. This will not be the case in China, their Engineering team will be the equal or larger than the U.S team.


Training and hiring is still a huge issue. Is anyone famiilar withthe cultural issues hiring, training, reloctaing in rural areas in China?


Curtis

 

[conrat]

I can tell you what you already know, about Mexico. But China is
a new frontier we have not tapped. Being most of our products are
for the domestic market in the states, I doubt a move to China would be
profitable.



Jim

 

[nawaz]

If ur company is being setup in China, u canhire real experts from India, which is China's nearest neighbour. Most of the people who work on pro-e(CAD/CAM) in Singapore are Indians. But one has to see whether China allows hiring Indians are not.


There is an Indian city named Hyderabad,is a reservoir of skilled personnel (fresh to experienced)in any CAD/CAM software u just name it.


u can contact some cad/cam institutes there. There is one institute where I got trainedE-mug Technologies Pvt. Ltd. I will give the website address after some time, as of now i m not able to recollect it.


Last, but not least, it is a good idea to setup the industry in INDIA as India can offer vast variety of skilled personnel from IT to Engineering to Doctors....

 

[afusen]

I am presently located in guangdong China and good knowledge of 3d solid/surface modeling using Pro engineer and Solidworks with basic knowledge of unigraphics and Catia V5.


Please let me know if you are interested in hiring me.


My email is [email protected]





Best regards,


Rey

 

[nawaz]

hi guys,


Here once again i m back. the website of the institute in India is


www.emugtech.com


they provide many kinds of services in CAD/CAM from HR Solutions to Manufacturing.

 

[splat10]

I worked for a company that did all of it's manufacturing and engineering work in china. The only thing done in the US was marketing and engineering Program Management. I'll tell you that the engineers we capable and the Pro/E was completed to what ID and Marketing wanted. BUT, God help you if you wanted to make a change or navigate thrugh one of the models. There was no use of interlink or PDM and it was in general a mess. There was no reuse of component since tools were so cheap to design and make so they didn't care about changing stuff. I think that in a few years they will be much better with it, but there will always bea shortage of skilled designers there. I will not be surprised to see wages rising quickly for skilled engineers and designers (if the commies allow that ???).


In short, if i were in charge and we had talented people in the US for desiging product, i'd make the transition slowly to give the chinese side time to come up to speed but when they do they'll work darn hard and give you what you need. Many speak some english and you can bring them to the US to give the managers the idea how things should be done.


Good luck

 

[bnemec]

<DIV>


Honestly I am surprised at how little most people actually know about China and the global economic threat that this country poses not only to the US but every other country around the world. I truly believe in the old adage that you get what you pay for and if what you want is cheap labor and products, all that you will get in return will be sub standard results and you cannot honestly expect much more than that.


Others have mentioned their companies who have opened new facilities in China and I have never seen anything good (long term that is) come of this. More engineering and development is being sent to China now that most manufacturing is there already. It is a natural progression as it makes sense to have the two disciplines in the same geographic area. However this comes at a cost to even more jobs here in the US and those of you who believe that your company wont pull the plug and move everything to China including your design and engineering jobs I only have one thing to say: Pull your head out of the sand (or whatever it is stuck in) and look around. I see it every day and trainingyour replacements is just the first step. Management will tell you that they are only offloading the "low end" jobs to free you up for better things. Don't be naive and think for a second that corporatemanagement wont sell you out if it means that they can personally gain. Much of the antics that corporations pull should be criminal and at a minimum are at least immoral and unethical.


I don't like to preach doom and gloom but I have a number of clients who are currently outsourcing to, have built facilities in,or are in the process of building facilities in China. The "ONLY" reason why companies sell out to cheap labor countries who devalue their currency is to improve the bottom line by raising profits through cost reductions. China is a fast growing country and is quickly becoming the global economic powerhouse that the US use to be and if we remain on this course, top ranking government economic analysts have predicted a major shift in global power (no duh!! because money is power) and an inevitable collapse.


Even if we reversed the process today and moved manufacturing back to the US it would literally take decades to fix the problems we have already started. If we did this it would mean that those of you who like to frequent Wal-Mart (I refuse to and use them as a shining example of who we should be boycotting but most mass retailers fall into this category) would actually have to pay a bit more for the products you want/need. I have a great vantage point to see all that is going on in and around manufacturing companies (which are the pillars of our economy, and they are crumbling) and it is down right frightening. I encourage everyone to exercise their minds by following/reading about and knowing what this new global economy really has to offer and who is going to benefit from it (not us).


Don't hate/blame the messenger as I know that the truth can hurt but this is the sad state of affairs that we as a country are in and will be for a long time to come. Be smart, educate yourselves and don't just follow the directions of management like Lemmings off a cliff.


Bruce</DIV>

 

[conrat]

I think the above comments were written rather eloquently. I tend
to agree with this outlook, as I have seen many welders at my shop laid
off for cheap Mexico labor. We opened a plant in Mexico around 8
years ago. We are still struggling to get them to use part
numbers, let alone make the products without defect. They are
motivated people, but don't yet quite know what they are doing.



The one big problem I have with the above post is the reference to
Wal-Mart. I remember as a child going to K-Mart and buying toys
from Mattell and Hasbro. Those were all made in Taiwan. I
also remember buying these same goods from Hills and Ames (both of
which are bankrupt now). The point is, I remember buying the same
brands at all of the other stores.



Now, the thing I am trying to figure out is, why is Wal-Mart so
bad? They buy the same stuff from the same manufacturers that all
of the other stores buy. They then offer them at a discounted
price as they buy in bulk and can do that. How does that hurt
Americans?



I have heard Wal-Mart forces supplier to go overseas by demanding lower
costs, but most of the companies that make stuff for Wal-Mart have been
doing this for years anyway. And, even if I go to K-Mart or
Target, I get the same brands. It isn't like these companies make
certain stuff in the US for K-Mart, but open a "special" manufacturing
facility in China for the same products that are sold at Wal-Mart.



I guess I don't see how shopping at Wal-Mart is any worse than K-Mart
or Target. They all get their stuff from the same place. It
is the quantity that Wal-Mart buys that offers the incentive to buy
there.



I can see being upset with the manufacturers, but I think Target-ing
Wal-Mart (pun intended) is missing the point. It is the
manufacturers of the goods we should be upset with. The guy
peddling the wares are getting them from the same places.



Now, if one wants to debate Wal-Mart's employee benefits and salaries,
that is another issue. I am fortunate enough to have worked and
attended college full-time to pull myself out of that gutter so I do
not need to work at Wal-Mart (and believe me, scrubbing toilets for
minimum wage was no cake walk). But I did this on my own and have
little patience for those who don't "feel" like working their butts off
to make a better living for themselves. (That is why I go insane
everytime I hear "jobs Americans won't do")



I guess to sum this up is, blame the manufacturers for their fleecing
of America, and hope when they come for your job, you have a Wal-Mart
as a job oppurtunity to fall back on.



For the record, I back up my Buy America policy not by boycotting
Wal-Mart. I purchased a 2005 Dodge Dakota, a 2005 Harley Davidson
1200C Sportster, and a 2004 Pontiac Grand Am (not all at the same
time). Those were all large purchases and my wife and I felt it
important to buy American. But my son's Star Wars toys will
continue to come from Wal-Mart.



It is a sad state of affairs I agree, but I think the focus should be
in the right direction. Feel free to explain how I am wrong. I think
this is an important issue.



Jim

 

[bnemec]

Conrat;


I am always interested in others points of view on this topic as I have been working within and dealing directly with the challenges for years. I dont know how anyone can argue against what I have posted above unless the person is completely oblivious to what is going on around them both domestically and internationally. Job rates are down (and falling), national debt is up (WAY UP) and we are now seeing many large corporations being swallowed by Chinese companies which ultimately maintain little presence here in the US as they move the major portions of the corporation offshore, ultimately leading to lost jobs. These are not just mundane, no brainer jobs. These are working class jobs that pay liveable wages here in the US (Engineering, Design, Manufacturing, etc...) and as most informed people know, the middle working class is the majority of the tax base which funds all of the stateand federal programs in this country. Each time a company moves these types of jobs offshore or worse yet, bring in cheap labor from India or China it erodes at this tax base and at some point in the not too distant future we will see a tipping point (point of no return) and that will be the onset of very bad things to come for our children andthe generations that follow.One of my main points is thatwe are being sold out by our politicians for short term gains and nobody is thinking long term as they are blinded by the here and now only because that is whataffects them personally.This takes me to my comments about walmart. If you noticed,I mentioned walmart but also noted that all major retailers/big box chains are a major part of this problem/phenomenon.I use walmart as the example because they are the biggest violator and most noteable to those who would read this posting.


With that said, I will note some of my observations below for further discussion. The purpose of this email was not to inflame the issue offshoring (or not) but to provide some background information on the why's and how's which lead directly to the original posting.


1. Taiwan is the China of the past. I have clients who are shuttering operations in Taiwan and moving them to mainland China. The main (and only) reason is cheaper costs. Period.


2. There is a reason why the stores that you mention are bankrupt and the others are merging (i.e. K-Mart with Sears). It is the only thing they can do to stay alive because Walmart (and others) have huge buying power coming out of China and these other companies cannot even come close to competing at this level. They may have (the key word is have because they are now out of business) had the same products but I can guarantee you that they were not able to fill their shelves for the same price as Walmart.


3. Americans are hurting themselves by looking to walmart as a one stop shop for everything as this removes any competition (to keep them somewhat honest) out fo the equation. Therefore Americans are hurt because the jobs that use to pay well enough for families to afford a house,annual vacation, or maybe a camper or boat now cannot do so because they are/will be forced to take lower wages. It is a basic eroding of the standard of living here in the US only to make another country (i.e. China) stronger and being that they are a communist country and have a doctrine to control world wealth/commerce, we should be very careful about who we are getting into bed with.


4. If roles were reversed and China had the power that the US holds now (but wont for long). Do you really think that they would be the worlds police force, donating money and resources to countries to battle hunger, injustice, ethnic cleansing, world health, etc...? I dont think so for even a second.


5. I was recently speaking with a client who currently manufactures ALL of their products in China and are opening engineering offices which will eliminate those jobs here in the US at some point in the near future (even though nobody internally seems to get this point as they walk around like everything is great). He told me that working with their so called partners in China is poor at best. His comment was that after you shake hands you need to take stock of how many fingers you have left. These are not my words, but his and I would cannot disagree as I see the constant barrage of knock off products coming out of China all the time.


6. If you think that you are going to get any legal backing on your proprietary and intellectual property out of China/Walmart you are sadly mistaken. There are NO means of resolution (unless you are walmart) to these problems currently and our elected officials are simply turning a blind eye to the problem mainly due to lobbyists on behalf of walmartwho payoff the politicians via campaign donations and direct compensation to ensure that their needs are met first and foremost.


7. I dont think that you understand how the system works as you cannot be too upset with the manufacturers as they have to survive as well and if all of us want to keep our current jobs you have to play along. Sure, there are corporations that fleece America but at the same time we should be focusing on the root of the problem and not the by-product of it. This is my whole point. Walmart is BAD because they have annual sales that exceed the domestic product of many countries on this planet (sales in excess of $1 Trillion/yr) and if your company sells or has to sellits product/s through this resource then you are locked into contracts that only favor walmart and are not fair at all. Manufacturers are NOT the problem here. They are simply being forced (yes forced) to do business with walmart in order to survive. I have talked to many people in upper management at Fortune 500 companies about working with walmart/home depot, target, etc... and if they had a choice, they would not do business with them. The simple reason is that everyone feels the need to get into walmart for sheer volume/sales. The downside is that you make a whole lot more product but your profits do not necessarily increase. An example of this is that lets say your company makes widgets and before getting into bed with walmart your company makes and sells widgets to the tune of 1 million/yr and at a price (which allows profit making) of $10. Now you get into bed with walmart and they will guarantee (use this term loosely and be careful) you 5 million/yr but you have to bring your price down to $5/each. If you do the math you are essentially working at cost with little or no room for profit which is what allows/makes a company grow.


This is a huge and far reaching topic and much like a tree, it has many branches, all of which can cause individual problems and eat away at the resources which make the tree grow. I am all for fair competition (but again, using walmart as an example) there is nothing fair about their practices. Whether that be labor, pay, purchasing or otherwise (see the latest lawsuit by women against walmart's hiring and promoting practices as just one example not to mention unfair wage/s and practices for benefits, pay, breaks, etc...). Walmart is SO BAD because of their sheer size and ability to wipe out any competition and their constant push for the cheapest products which puts them heavily into China which in itself is a very bad thing. When this goes unchecked or overlooked by our politicians whose pockets are being lined, any checks and balances are now out of the equation and walmart is left to police themselves (god help us all). Any system without competition or checks and balances always becomes corrupt, ALWAYS. The reasons are many but for the most part it is due to money and power and those who have it only want more and will do anything to get it. Money is truly the root of all evil and therefore we as a free society cannot allow corporations or government to run rampant. The turn side of this coin is if we allow it to happen there will no longer be a free society.


In my humble opinion the best thing that could happen for the US and the rest of the world whose ecomonies are being tied more and more every day to China (it would hurt for awhile though) would be to have civil unrest in China whereas the workers rise up for better pay, benefits, working conditions and more. Of course this would be met with military force but will happen eventually. It is just a matter of time until the workers will want their MTV, freedom, democracy and more. I guess we will just have to wait and watch.


To sum this up, keep in mind that walmart use to have a "Made in the USA" doctrine back when Sam Walton was alive. Upon his death the family fought over his accrued wealth and that spawned the new walmart philosophy of cheapest is best. I am not saying that we should buy only US made products, I am saying that like anything else you have to limit too much of a good thing otherwise it will hurt you. Just think about what walmart is offering and who is gaining for the conveniences thatit adds to your lives(just walmart). Do you really think that the milk producer selling to walmart makes as much money as when he sells to a local store (NO!!!). What use to be a department store now offers pharmaceuticals, eye care, hair styling, used car lots, and soon to be DOCTOR's??? I cannot believe that anyone would see this as a good thing but I have been surprised before as people dont tend to think about long term ramifications of what they do and support. When those people are in unemployment lines and the only job offered is at walmart with really low wages and poor working conditions, they might see the light. But I doubt it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Walton


Bruce

 

[conrat]

Bruce,



Yet another eloquent posting. I do not agree with everything you
state, but do agree with some. I will state some of my thoughts,
which are also not intended to inflame.



You believe that it is all the retailer's fault for the rising tide of
outsourcing to other countries. Though I do not disagree with the
premise that companies move their operations overseas because of cheap
labor, I do not agree with the idea that Wal-Mart is wrong for wanting
lower costs on the shelves. Wal-Mart operates on a razor thin
profit margin and need the lowest prices to ensure those huge profits.



The main reason I am upset with outsourcing to China is their
communist/socialist government. I find it rather ridiculous that
we will not negotiate with Cuba because they are communist, yet we will
do so with China, even though they have stolen secrets and spied on us
for years. They prop up a puppet government in N. Korea, and
oppose any actions we want to take with terrorist states that threaten
(more of a threat than Wal-Mart) the national security of this and many
other countries.



We also live in a free society. No one is "forced" to do business
with Wal-Mart. There are plenty other stores with which to do
business. Sure doing business with Wal-Mart will mean lowering
your costs, but then again, that is capitalism. Lower costs allow
lower prices on the store shelves and lower prices means more people
buy your goods. And more goods being bought means higher
profits. This is the American way. It has been proven again
and again and is basic economics. Companies enter into contracts
with Wal-Mart why? To make more money. If it didn't make
economic sense to do so, they would not. Ultimately, corporations
are beholden to their shareholders. I would not want to put my
money in a company that did not turn out a profit.



When you go to buy a new car, don't you want the lowest price?
Don't you want all of the extras for no additional costs? Sure
you do. Are you wrong for not wanting to pay more? How is
this any different than Wal-Marts philosophy? You will strong arm
the dealer if you can to get a lower price. I sure as hell
do. I do everything I can to get the lowest price, even though I
typically feel that I don't.



Ultimately, we should blame our government. They are the ones
allowing a 25:1 trade deficit with China. They are also the ones
who allow China to manipulate their currency exchange, fixing it to the
dollar. This makes it cheaper for them to export and more
expensive for us to import. Neither the Clinton or Bush
administration has done anything to change this (though this
administration has mentioned it recently).



Your comment about proprietary and intellectual property is spot
on. From what I have read, intellectual property rights are non
existent in China. They do not accept this conecpt as they are
communist and intellectual property is the property of the
masses. This is the reason communism cannot survive without a
capitalistic backer like the US. There is no incentive to
innovate. Why would you struggle to change and make theings
better if there is no incentive to do so.



One thing you do not touch on is the crazy unions
we have in this country. Why would I want to set up shop in the US, when if I do, I
will be forced to enter into union negotiations that could ultimately
lead me to pay people for not working? Ever here of job banks?







[url]http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179. htm[/url]







Are these practices hurting America? Is paying people not to work a
good idea? Is paying people a wage higher than the work is worth a
good idea? I know factory workers making more than they should. Some of them
simply do mindless assembly tasks eight hours a day. Why are they
worth $20 or $30 an hour? Is it okay to use robots to automate these
tasks (I would rather use robots than outsourcing)?



I guess my point is there are many reasons for the outsourcing of jobs
in this country andWal-Mart is in the thick of it. However, I do
not believe it is some grand conspiracy by Wal-Mart to make China
stronger. They are just doing what their shareholders want.
To make the largest profits possible.



Now, this may ultimately be a bad thing for the US. And I would
much rather have the outsourcing going to emerging democracies and free
republics around the world (think former soviet bloc countries), as
they would ultimately be more friendly to us in the long run. I
find it offensive that we continue to do business with countries who
will not do the right thing on the world stage and consistently stifle
dissent in their own country.



But these are policies set up in Washington and it is ultimately their
fault (and ours for not electing people who would put our interests
before lobbyists). The two party system in this country is
broken. And for those who think the Democrats are different than
Republicans on this issue only need to look at who signed NAFTA.
Slick Willy signed this into law, just like Bush signed CAFTA.
Both sides talk about saving American jobs, but these are campaign
promises that are meant to be broken.



You are right when you talk about short over long term goals.
This is where the lobbying comes in. But we are at an age in this
society where we want it and we want it now. It is no wonder that
politicians, who can only stay elected for a decade or so, sell us out
in the short term.



After rereading my original post, I have altered my views a little to
be a little more on target. It is a soup of culprits in this game
of outsourcing. And I think the government is the chicken, while
Wal-Mart and the manufacturers are the noodles.



But these are the rambling thoughts of an engineer who is not a
politician nor business owner. I am not an authority on these
issues, though I play one on TV. (heh..heh)



Jim