Infinite Frustration

[mjcole_ptc]

You guys should try living in UG space:

rounds are blends

drawing formats are patterns

try dimensioning angles in sketcher

features can be "unparameterized"

Good one!

UG = Useless Geometry

I made a sign for this one that I had posted in my cube. NX is getting a lot better but copied many ideas from Pro/E. In UG I often found that you have to create 3-5 times as many features as in Pro/E to get the same result. This was the case for doing split line drafts before NX2. You'd half to make a body copy @timestamp, trim the original body, trim the opposite side of the copy and make 2 draft features. How's that for convenience?

I've used Catia too and here's what I think about it.
Catia is an Angry Bear and it will definitely Maul you.

Catia Sketcher is very frustrating and very un-intuitive. It can add many constraints to two objects. If you select two lines you can set length constraints and angle between them in one operation. There is however no equal length or radius constraint so you have to set individual constraint relations for each equal length line. Solid Works excels in this area in that it can search for equal length lines and let you set 10 lines to be equal length whereas Pro/E you have to set 9 equal length constraints.

Catia user interface is the furthest from being intuitive. And there take on surfacing is to make it a separate module you constantly have to swap back and forth between Wireframe&Surface and the Solid module.

I prefer Pro/E but it is in no means perfect.

Michael


Edited by: mjcole_ptc

 

[HARMAN]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I'm not sure it has really hepled Erich in any way but it makes me feel better that more people than not think that pro-e is dogs-doo to drive!


Just a shame its such a big effort to change the cad system once the company has been using the same one for several years.

Still, we have a seat of sw here so i think i'll go and learn to use that in my spare time.

 

[Erich with an H]

You won't regret it.

 

[design-engine]

Soldiworks users think their sketching tools are awsome. Obviously they have nothing to base their thoughts on or to compare with.

 

[Mindripper]

I beg to differ, design-engine. I have used Prime Medusa, AutoCAD, ME30, Pro/E and SW, with thousand of hours on all but ME30 (now Solid Designer). So I do have a basis for comparison. But the relevant comparison here is between SW and Pro/E, which are the 3D modelers I have been using for the last ten years. I find it curious that SW's sketcher has so much in common with the sketcher of the Pro/E Release 17 thru 21 era. That's certainly one of the reasons it was so easy for me to adapt to SW back in 1999, and run both packages at the same time. Although SW has added enhancements to their sketcher's functionality over the years, it's Pro/E that has taken a new path in another direction. And this path is more problematic in many ways than the old path.But theone big difference between the sketchers is still the 'Easy' button in SW. You can screw up in a sketch, and it's easy to recover: it will not only allow you to do this without forcing the user into feature resolve mode, it will also give meaningful graphical clues about the problem without any need to pull down menus or querying attributes. Until I started using SW, I just resigned myself to the difficulties of Pro/E. When I started using SW, I realized that CAD just did not have to be difficult to learn and use.


I'm working with an electrical engineer on some fixture designs right now. He had never used MCAD before last summer. He got an SW license and is now able to open my files, query my parts and make a few models - all self-taught. This is unimaginable with Pro/E.

 

[dgs]

I certainly have a lot of issue with Pro|E's sketcher, but I read you comment I wonder what you're looking at. I'm now using SW 2006 for a project and I'm finding it's sketcher maddening. Most of my frustrations are because it's just different. I've spent 11 years in Pro|E's sketcher and I'm used to how it operates. Sketcher in Pro|E has come a long, long way.


In SW here are some things that frustrate me.
<UL>
<LI>Constraints are little tiny squares that all look the same. A black icon ona colored square (by default, mine was black on dark blue - impossible to read). I find Pro|E's constraint icons much easier to read and understand.</LI>
<LI>If you create a dimension that over constrains a sketch, you either can make it ref or have it over dimensioned. In Pro|E I get an option to delete a number of constraints or dims that conflict. Granted, it frequently leaves off the one a actually want to delete, but at least I have options.</LI>
<LI>Hidden constraints. In SW, you don't have to constrain ordimension anything - just sketch and go. But SW is assuming something about the location and size of that sketch, it's just not telling you. You can sketch and go in Pro|E as well, but at least Pro|E will tell you what it's assuming by adding 'weak' dims and constraints.</LI>[/list]


I'm sure as I use it, I'll find more to like and less frustrations, but right now I much prefer Pro|E's sketcher.

 

[dr_gallup]

I'm working with an electrical engineer on some fixture designs right now. He had never used MCAD before last summer. He got an SW license and is now able to open my files, query my parts and make a few models - all self-taught. This is unimaginable with Pro/E.

I know quite a few people who are self taught in Pro/E and capable of making very good robust parts, assemblies & drawings. It is not rocket science. Actually, I think it was a lot easier to learn back in the release 20 days because everything was menu driven. Now it's 50% dash board, 30% menu and 20% can't find it.

 

[michael3130]

Dr_gallup,


You're right, though I self taught myself WF when I started this job nearly 4 years ago. I had 5 years experience using SW before that and some experience in SDRC, so maybe it's more a case of knowing the fundamanetals of 3D CAD packages. So Mindripper, though it's not as friendly to use as SW, self teaching in ProE is possible.


Design-Engine,


You're obviously a whizz at ProE and know it inside out. I've read a lot of your posts and you are a world of information but you are very wrong in your comment about SW users having nothing else to base their sketching tools on. Using both ProE and SW on a daily basis onproper engineering projects, I think that both sketchers are excellent in their own way. Both guide you to problems in their own ways and neither is perfect. They are both excellent though.


Michael

 

[Mindripper]

dgs: are you using the constraints manager in SW (the eyeglasses icon)? Any and all constraints in a sketch can be listed there in a variety of relevant listings (including context-sensitive listings), and the elements of relations highlighted. Any or all constraints can be easily deleted there too. And although the SW sketcher will allow you to leave things underconstrained, it does color-code tham as such (blue). It also color codes problems in the sketch in several different colors, based on it's intepretation of the problem.


One might say that SW isn't software for the color-blind, but in fact it is easy to change these (and all) colors in SW (graphically, of course - config.pro's techniques for color managementare beyond antiquated). One of the best SW users I know is color-blind; yes, he changes the colors in his seat to suit his needs. Yes, SW is software that is friendly even to those who have special needs.


In many cases, it is also possible to simply continue with the function in SW even when there is a sketcher error: not so in Pro/E. It must be deemd acceptable NOWby Pro/E, even if the user knows the real problem is in another feature. The user is forced to 'fix'the sketchtwice.


And unlike Pro/E, you can delete any dimension(s) at any time in an SW sketch: you are not forced to create a new one first that will replace it (or them). This is particularly frustrating when trying to add an angular dimension to replace two linear ones in Pro/E's sketcher. I have been working on some poorly-made models for molded parts lately, trying to add draft to the sketches, and this is really frustrating.


Too bad Pro/E doesn't create have the option to create draft within the feature, like SW does. One of these parts has tons of molded lettering on it, with no draft.The letteringneeds draft. This is a multi-week project in Pro/E - but would take me perhaps an hour in SW.


I have to agree (again) with dr_gallup thatPro/E Release 20 days was easier to learn and use. The confused mix of dashboard, menu and relocated functions in WF has cost me a lot of hair over the last eight months. I'll take the old straight menu-based system any day - or better yet, a fully integrated icon-based product that runs in a native Windows environment. But I'm a dreamer - and I know that these products exist elsewhere.

 

[mjcole_ptc]

SW constraints are very similar to the intent manager except for the Right Click usage to lock and unlock constraints and the tab key to cycle through constraints.

However Solid Works Constraints or Relations are created on context with what is selected and doesn't make you preselect the type of constraint you want to add. When you select lines it will display a list of available settings like Equal Length, Vertical, Horizontal, Parallel, Perpendicular etc. and you can add multiple constraints for many items simultaneously. If you were sketching a Hexagon in Solid Works without using their polygon tool you can sketch N number of lines all conected and in one operation select them all and hit equal to make them equal length where in Pro/E you must add all the constraints by picking many sets of two items.

Pro/E has their new section profile manager but you have to predefine every one you want to use where solid works ascs for a controlling diameter and number of sides.

I haven't seen the WF4 sketcher yet but I'm not expecting it to come anywhere close to competing with the power of Solid Works Sketcher.

Michael

 

[dgs]

dogs: are you using the constraints manager in SW (the eyeglasses icon)?

Hadn't known about that, it helps a little. My biggest frustration, however, is that all the constraint types look the same unless I study them carefully. I'm learning them, but it's not as obvious as Pro|E's constraint icons. Also, when there's an issue in the sketch, the little squares turn from light grey to dark grey, not real easy to diagnose.

In many cases, it is also possible to simply continue with the function in SW even when there is a sketcher error: not so in Pro/E. It must be deemed acceptable NOWby Pro/E, even if the user knows the real problem is in another feature. The user is forced to 'fix'the sketchtwice.

I do like that SW let's you leave it 'broken', both within sketcher and outside. At first it bugged me, but I'm warming up to it. There have been many times that I wished I could leave something hanging for the moment, go change an earlier feature and then come back and fix this one. You can in Pro|E, in many cases, but it's harder. If you have a problem within a sketch, however, you cannot leave it hang without loosing the changes you just made.

And unlike Pro/E, you can delete any dimension(s) at any time in an SW sketch: you are not forced to create a new one first that will replace it (or them).

Not true, you can delete away, Pro|E just fills in its own dimensions or constraints to fully constrain the sketch. SW does too, I assume (it has to locate that geometry somehow), it just does so behind the scenes. I like that Pro|E tells me what it's doing, although you're right, it can be frustrating at times to make it do what you want. Weak dims frequently are ignored when picking dims to remove when conflict occurs.

 

[flyerfly]

I must say that after reading most of this thread I find it odd that so many people seem to hate what I love...

. For about 8 months I had the unfortunate experience of working with Solidworks. Before that I thought the grass was greener in the Solidworks area then Pro/E...but then after using it for some time I changed my mind and maintain that Pro/E is better. Sure there are little things that I like about SW more then Pro/E but that is the way it is with all CAD software. As a whole though I find Pro/E to be...

1. More stable
2. Better able to handle large assemblies
3. Have a much better equation/relation editor and variables that are not a million miles long. Yes I drive alot of things with equations as I am an engineer and do alot of optimization etc.
4. I like the model tree better in Pro/E it allows you to find relationships easier and control them better.
5. The sketcher in Pro/E is faster and easier to use the SW and takes less mouse clicks.
6. I like the mapkeys better then macros
7. I like the section tools better in Pro/E (like the ability to select section geometry to measure etc) I do like dynamic section in SW but don't really use it for production drawings...just for looking. Also Pro/E can display multiple uncapped sections at the same time.
8. I can select intent surfaces (seed, boundary etc etc) to create large surface quilts automatically.
9. The FEA in Mechanica is far better then in SW. Especially if you do advanced stuff like composites and other non-isotropic materials (I do this all the time and it saves alot of time).

Well I got to get back to work...there is more but folks have to decide on their own what CAD software they like. I would encourage those who think the grass is greener elsewhere to study it objectively and not just go by what any CAD sales people say. I have used more then 6 mainline solid modeling programs over the last 15 years and they all have different strengths. Also it depends on the geometry and type of purpose you have that makes a huge difference...just do your homework before you think one CAD program is better then the others etc. etc. Also just thank competition or ALL of the CAD software would be junk!

I hope those of you who hate Pro/E learn to enjoy it as much as I do....

If not I hope that you find a good job that suites your CAD needs...or that you encourage PTC to solve those problems that might make life more tolerable for you. I just hope that PTC does not fix what is not broken but will enhance the software in a meaningful way as time goes on...everything can be improved!

 

[Jacoolo]

it seems it happens the same as with old car, motorbike, wife) etc

After a long time you know this best, but you`re bored. So new things looks more intresting - new car, motorbike etc.But, Is it same reliable? Can you count on "new thing" the same as with existing one? That is the question.

Let`s back to main topic - still think Pro\e is good software. In the same time, I claim, Pro\E needs big changes.

Considering relations menu in Pro\E in SW. If this one in Sw is worst, well I do know how it could be possible. The relation menu in Pro\e has everything apart of ease of use. It looks like enviroment for programers, not for engineers. I would like to have it more similar to funcionality Catia has.