Mastering Layers Q&A

[gkbeer]

So, in order to createa rule I can't just have rules turned on (or enabled), I have to set them to be independent or associative. And independent means they are only evaluated when created and associative means evaluated at each regen. So what does 'enabled' do? I mean, if I can enable them but they are never evaluated, how is that enabled?

What's more, I can'thave them associative unless they are also independent. And I can have them associative and independent and not enabled. Does PTC understand what these English words mean?

Why not just say on or off, and evaluate once or evaluate always?


The folks responsible for this layering interface ought to be fired. Seriously. This is a mess. Great functionality, but horribly implemented.

<ul>[*]The independent check has to be in place to be able to create a layer rule from within the layer dialog. [*]Once the rule is in place it will cause all newly created items to be placed on that layer. [*]If you desire that existing features be collected onto the layer, check the Associative option. Then layer rule checking starts taking place during model regeneration and features that existed prior to the rule's addition will be added to the layer as well.[/list]Creating a layer via the find dialog creates a layer with all three options checked by default.

Nobody should be fired. Independent has to do with having a default layer model defined and how the model being worked is impacted by it. WF gave us a truly powerful set of tools for managing layers. But it takes some practice. What is lacking is a good group of mentors. Which you and verge are on the way to being.

 

[verge]

Doug, remember how this thing started. My first and (so far) only rant! I was going to suggest that this was turning into a fairly lively rant, but I guess it's been done!


One suggestion would be to fire everybody and hire us, but PTC probably isn't going to go for that!

Look, just associate and propagate all of the independently enabled features, that's all!

Trying to loosen you up a little, Doug, that's all. Went through this myself, but I wasn't trying to do such in-depth stuff with my layers. So, frankly, I had an easier time of it than you...


When you figure this out, you're going to be feeling pretty darn self-satisfied.

 

[dgs]

Nobody should be fired.

OK, maybe I let my frustration get the best of me, those guys can have their jobs back.

It sounds like I don't quite have a grasp of what these terms mean or everything that's going on or possible in the layer dialog. Knowing Pro|E, I still suspect that once I do get it better, I'll find that it's not as clear as it should be. For example, the disconnect between the find tool and layer creation is unfortunate.


That said, Glenn, can you give me concise definition of what the picks 'rules enabled', independent' and associative mean? Why can't you have a rule that's associative without it being independent? What does setting a rule as independent make it independent of? Have you figured out what a default layer model is yet? Are these setting set on a per rule or per layerbasis or can I set it globally for all my parts? I suspect they are part specific in the least.


Thanks!

 

[gkbeer]

This is going to get into the DEFAULT LAYER MODEL (DLM) of which I know little for sure.

INDEPENDENT:

A layer has to be independent before rules can be set, or for pro/e to pay attention to any rules that might have been set. You need to ask? "Independent of what?" Well, Independent of the Default Layer Model. The DLM is set via a config.pro option. A DLM is like a start part, but only for layer definitions. By (un)checking Independent that layer may or may not pay attention to the rules found in the DLM for that same layer. (One thing I don't know is if the layers definitions in the DLM are copied to the current model.)<br style="font-style: italic;">
Without Independent checked the other two checks are meaningless and therefor grayed out, the layer is dependent on the default layer model for what rules should be used.

Since we are not using a DLM, it must be checked, in order to get to the rules tab.

ENABLED:

Just what you think it means. The rules are either enabled or disabled. Disabling a rule does not remove items from the contents of the layer. An enabled layer will automatically add "newly created items" to the layer if they match an existing rule. Items (features...) created prior to the creation of the rule will not be added to a layer that is only Independent and Enabled.

ASSOCIATIVE:

Associative tells pro/e to evaluate the layer rules during regeneration of the model. With this checked previously created features will be added to the layer if the layer rule says they should. This only happens during regeneration, so simply checking it will not update the contents tab until after a regeneration. Associative is good for layers that have rules like name = dtm*. If you rename a dtm to start with anything but dtm, it will automatically be dropped from the layer.

(Note: For set_datums I use a rule name = ?, that way any feature named with a single letter is placed on the set_datums layer. Of course I have to reserve single letter name for set datums, and rename datums that I unset...)


Find dialog layer creation vs. creating rules via the layer dialog
When save query is used to create a layer via the find dialog, all three of these are automatically checked when the layer is created. This is different from when the layer is created directly from the layer tree. Then none of these checks are set.

BTW: the Rule Editor dialog is exactly the same as the find dialog in all important respects.




Edited by: gkbeer

 

[ice8]

hands down the best topic this forum has seen in a while i have re read it 3 times over the last few days.


your work is not going unappreciated


i forgot to email my self today with a screen shot i took from an update tool my company uses


i have never seen anything like it before and not sure how it was created. it looks like a seperate program to me


it is mainly used after importing outsiders models but i have found that it will alter our current start part models as well


it deletes a few layers off and moves datums with one letter to a new layer -previously it was puttting them into 2 seperate layers by default


however after running this program and creating a new datum it adds a new layer back again and i have to run the programright beforeim ready to check in. i think i am the only one doing this currently but it does make hiding gtol datums in an assy drawing much easier


i will post that pic when i remember and maybe you can make sense of it


thanks for making some sense out of all this, it has been very interesting


the number of views on this post should be tripled by now, i think even with the wealth of info here some people still dont want to try to understand this monster
Edited by: ice8

 

[verge]

Thanks, Glen, for exploring Associative, Enabled and Independent. They should have given you at least another hour for Q & A on this subject.


I just know that I cringe now when I watch people using "turn datum planes on/off". All or nothing is no way to deal with this stuff!

 

[verge]

A (seemingly) simple question:


Why won't some of my layers isolate? I have a small number of layers that won't cooperate with me. They are layers with components on them - I could make a simplified rep instead, but I want to place BOM balloons on these components...


Any hints?

 

[verge]

I just looked at this again and realized that the isolation works within the assembly, but does not work within the drawing of the assembly.


Some of the layers will isolate and others won't.


I am looking into them now to see if there's some difference between the layers that will isolate and those that won't.

 

[gkbeer]

I just looked at this again and realized that the isolation works within the assembly, but does not work within the drawing of the assembly.


Some of the layers will isolate and others won't.


I am looking into them now to see if there's some difference between the layers that will isolate and those that won't.

I don't understand what you are telling me. Please explain what end result it is, you are hoping to achieve, without how it was attempted.

 

[verge]

I have a number of layers (I know you warned me against this, but they're layers with components on them) that won't isolate. I want to isolate them within a drawing. It won't work. The drawing is titled "general_arrangement.drw", and is based on the model "general_arrangement.asm".


I can isolate some of these layers within themodel "general_arrangement.asm".

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[gkbeer]

Ok, I'm still not twigging.

I did a quick test, added a layer to an assembly, added two parts to the layer, opened the drawing of that assembly, selected the layer, and changed it's status to isolate.

After that I updated the views of the drawing. The result was, all the views changed to show only the two parts that are on the layer. Note: None of my views have and independent layer status. (This is as I would expect.)

How is what you did different from that?



Edited by: gkbeer

 

[verge]

Glenn,


I have a technical issue that I feel may be causing this problem. I have a graphics card that is insufficient for the task at hand, and this was just brought to my attention recently. I'm actually using an entry-level CAD graphics card to handle huge assemblies! If I'd only known...


I performed an experiment just like yours, only with a small assembly, and had absolutely no problem manipulating layers properly. It's when I move into this huge assembly that weirdness starts happening. The card is being replaced with a high-performance card tomorrow, and I'll let you know if my analysis is correct.


Thanks again for all your help. I'm really glad you've hosted this Q&A. It's helping not only me, but everyone in our Mech Eng department.

 

[Jacoolo]

hats off, great topic

question - how to collect by "find" tool curve entities. I know how to collect curve itself as a feature, but could not figure it out with curve entities, I know it is possible, I have seen models with such layer controled by rule, but I do not remmember how it was done though

the same for quilts, I want to have to seperate layers - surfaces and quilts. With first one - no problem, but with the second, well I am not sure if I deal with this right

 

[ameuniot]

Excellent topic!

Now if I could just get toggling layer mapkeys, I would be ecstatic. I can't believe they lost this functionality between 2001 and WF! We used to be able to toggle layers on and off with single keystrokes. It was so fast and convenient. Now...

I have seen Olaf Cortensen's workaround on ProEsite, but ouch. I spent a lot of time setting it up and it is slooow because it has to self-redefine the mapkey every time you use it.

Sorry if mapkeys are considered "off-topic", but I consider them an aspect of mastering layers and their display control.

Fingers-crossed that one of you masters has a solution...

Regardless, thanks for the fantastic thread and information!
AM

 

[verge]

Wow, way to throw a wrench in the works! This is becoming pretty exciting now...mapkeys for layer control; I love it!


Glenn, the gauntlet has been thrown down. I can feel the adrenaline flowing...

(You'll notice that Glenn is the real master here - the rest of us are simply apprentices at this point. I'm hoping for journeyman status soon.)

 

[gkbeer]

hats off, great topic

question - how to collect by "find" tool curve entities. I know how to collect curve itself as a feature, but could not figure it out with curve entities, I know it is possible, I have seen models with such layer controled by rule, but I do not remmember how it was done though

the same for quilts, I want to have to seperate layers - surfaces and quilts. With first one - no problem, but with the second, well I am not sure if I deal with this right

The find tool isn't really as intuitive as is should be.

In WF2 try Look for: 3d curve/ look by: feature/ attributes- type: is equal to - Category:datum - Value: curve.

Edit: In the future, I'll most likely not answer "How do I use the find tool to..." kind of questions, as they are tangential to this topic.

Maybe somebody else could start a "Find Tool Q&A" sister topic.



Edited by: gkbeer

 

[gkbeer]

Excellent topic!

Now if I could just get toggling layer mapkeys, I would be ecstatic. I can't believe they lost this functionality between 2001 and WF! We used to be able to toggle layers on and off with single keystrokes. It was so fast and convenient. Now...

I have seen Olaf Cortensen's workaround on ProEsite, but ouch. I spent a lot of time setting it up and it is slooow because it has to self-redefine the mapkey every time you use it.

Sorry if mapkeys are considered "off-topic", but I consider them an aspect of mastering layers and their display control.

Fingers-crossed that one of you masters has a solution...

Regardless, thanks for the fantastic thread and information!
AM

A tip only, as I'm confident you will figure out how to use it.

With the layer tree active, look at Show/Find/Search

This can be used, in a mapkey, to search for and select specific layers by name prior to setting the status of them. A separate mapkey will be needed for each status to be set...

Edit: I would say that paired mapkeys like /plane and \plane would work well as on/off mapkeys for the planes layer.

Edited by: gkbeer

 

[Jacoolo]

gkbeer wrote

In WF2 try Look for: 3d curve/ look by: feature/ attributes- type: is equal to - Category:datum - Value: curve.

this is what I have already set up.

It collects curves as feats. I want to have curve entieties as separate layer

View attachment 4048

see difference in symbols? I can do it manually, but I want to have it as a rule.

 

[Rbrgr83]

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I suppose that this is:


Denial
Anger
Bargaining (aka beating you head against the screen and pleeding with it)
Depression
and Acceptance(or insanity, depending on who wins, you or ProE)


5 stages of ProE layer greif.

 

[gkbeer]

gkbeer wrote

In WF2 try Look for: 3d curve/ look by: feature/ attributes- type/ comparison: - is equal to - Category:datum - Value: curve.

this is what I have already set up.

It collects curves as feats. I want to have curve entieties as separate layer.

Try again.

View attachment 4052