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Solidworks vs. ProE

I agree with you but the reality of outsourcing drives a new meaning to the word EXPORT. Every mom and pop machine shop has been thrown in mix as well as China, India........ and the expectation of everyone having Pro???


Especially our buddies with the bail out package...... a lot of them use UG, but the wealth (or lack thereof) are shared through export (iges or step). As I told you of laughing to the bank. One of the mom and pop shops that I'm associated with was forced into an agreement to buy SW - so that the UG transfer would be cleaner than his current antique Cadkey license Key..... Now that pricing for Pro, Inventor, and SW are so close...... maybe requiring vendors to have Pro is a no brainer...... then it comes down to weeks of training vs. days....... it's all relative.
 
design-engine said:
I disagree some. See I buy into the deal where vendors should use Pro/E just like me. If I use SW then I want them using SW too.None of this export business....


I think it terribly rude if my customer chooses to do everything with an export.
Click to expand...

I think that works if you're John Deere or Toyota, but in my 12 years on Pro|E working for small to medium sized businesses, I can count on one hand the number of vendors that would work with our volume that used Pro|E. One of our current customers has worked with us for almost 20 years and the dominate tehir industry, but their volumes are such that they are working with vendors who don't have in house CAD at times, let alone Pro|E.

All Pro|E all the way sounds great and looks great in those PTC 'product development wilderness' demos, but in the real world all I care about is that they can get our parts built right, on time and at a cost that means I can make money putting the untis together and reselling them.

Frankly, Pro|E is more valuable if it makes it easy for me to work with whatever I find out there at my clients or vendors. Making it easy to work with other PTC products is cake, make it easy to work with MasterCAM, Solidworks, UG, Inventor, SolidEdge or whatever CAM or tooling package my vendor has is harder but more valueable to me.
 
Seems to me that if we as CAD customers truly owned our data, we could do with it what we want, want to use Pro/E use it. Want to use MasterCAM? Use that.


Let me explain. If the data files were truly universal we could use the best tool for the job. But they aren't. We are being held hostage by the software companies who lock up OUR data in THEIR formats. Want to use Solidworks for 3D design and detail in AutoCAD, you have to translate. You get the point.


I realize that this is a bit of pie in the sky thinking. But when you start to think of how much time and trouble and money is spent on this, it boggles the mind.


The record industry tried DRM, it didn't work, why do CAD companies think that in the long run that they can? Where is the MP3 of the CAD world?
 
good discussion...

wsylvester? I was under the impression that Pro/MANUFACTURE updated just like a part or a drawing or an assembly.Make a modification on a Pro/E upper housing and the toolpath would update as well upon regeneration.I want to learn Pro/MAN next!
 
Like when you make a mod in your model, you have to regen it.


Sort of the same thing in manuf., if the model has been mod, then the toolpaths have to be regened


and the .tap file <the g-gode> has to be reposted also.


It's not quite as associative as they say it is
 
Guy

Every cam program software has to repost to the machine. This is a good thing (and it can be automated). CNC Machines all speak a different language (just like cad software's). If you want to run the same part on three different controllers (CNC machines) then you need to post 3 times(this can be automated).

By the way I have watch experienced programmers spend days tiring to program a simple part with Solidworks. When they finally gave it to me I programed it in 20 mins from a steped in file in Pro-Man. The program is only as good as the step file.

It is as associative as they say it is. When you move a feature of a part (step or native Pro-E) after you have programed it with Pro-man. All you have to do is regenerate the manufacturing file troubleshoot it and repost. Small changes can be turned around and cutting chips in 20 mins or less.
 
Howdy Heath!Heath and I have been friends for 10 years BTW as he teaches our Pro/NC classes on the weekend because his day job is NASA and he got to get that 40 hrs.

Im not exactly sure what post means. Post the code to the machine...Did I say that right?

So how good is Pro/MANUFACTURE then? I hear it is as good or close to what UG has to offer.And UG is the top dog for machining? I wonder what Pro/MAN does UG doesn't?
Edited by: design-engine
 
Heath,
Your posting has to do with your own environment. I am a pro man programmer for years. This is not a solidworks VS proe thing. I might be able to make your 20 mins even faster at the machine control? If the guy takes hours and you only take 20 mins, the guy needs to go? The posting issue is also huge? How good is your post? Do you cut and paste etc... Some people have their ducks in a row while other people do not?
 
Dude,

Never said that other Cam programs don't need the sames steps. There does seem to be this big misunderstanding that if the model gets changed with pro/man you're good to go,code and all. Even when they blow away the parent geometry.

Cncwhiz is making a good point about environment and programmers. I've seen guys crank things out in no time one-bauding it at the machine. Most shops are a profit based business, unlike Nasa. Again environment.

ProE-ProMan is awesome, but not always the best solution. The others can be automated also. SolidWorks, Pro, Mcam, Mori, Haas, Hurcos... It's all good, depends what you have in the corral on how you saddle up.
 
dude and guy...

I like the Yankee vs redneck better.I was teaching a surfacing class in Middle England back in 2002 and the participants in the class couldn't tell me what kind of surfaces they wanted to create with ISDX while in the class. I assumed they wanted some new stealthy shape of some kind... and since that stuff is all top secret and all.... so when lunch was served I went to the NASA.GOV site and the x-airplane on the main NASA.GOV site announced that very day the new-stealthy form.... the very form they were looking to learn how to model.One guy was really angry that he said loudly, "Yanks give it away". He even called me a "yank".I hate dude and guy worse than 'Yankee and redneck'. Funny.

I would like to learn more about cam tools. I hear how great Pro/MAN is from Heath for years and he keeps me up to date on how these tools and other Pro/E tools are used improperly in industry. I use this information so we can make better discussions in classes.

I appreciate heaths input on the site and over the phone. He was the one who got me to sign up to this forum in the first place. (now your cursed heath)

Some links I think you guys may find useful.
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Three-Axis-CNC -Machine-Cheaply-and-/

http://buildyourcnc.com/default.aspx

The Rhino people that come in for training are all jewelery designers.... most of them have a small CNC desktop milling machine. I might have to flip for one just to play with it.
Edited by: design-engine
 
Hi Bart,

Pro-E is great for machining. Others work as well with different disadvantages and advantages (this we all know).

The thing we are talking about here is Pro-E VS Solidworks.

Solidworks for machining is not, and never will be a mainstream idea.

The reason is that Solidworks does not have a CNC Modal. What they have is a CAM partner (to many problems). The problems start with just being able to cleanly program even some of the most simple shapes(no reflection on the programmer) its the software(as stated earlier).
As for programing at the machine, while what do I need to say, I mean really. We are talking about modern machining, right(5 axis and above).
Verifying your toolpath (vericut is one option) is just not optional these days. Right???
Also if it where all good manufacturing would not have moved to China.
The only PROFITABLE machining left here is prototyping. you know fast turn around. Get the part program it and run 1 maybe 24 parts and move on to the next project.

The days of running 60 of the same machines for 6 months or longer on the same part is in China now.

Guys you both sound like you like Pro-E That's a good thing. Pro-E CAD or CAM guys make more money.
So be happy!
Oh and don't Talk about NASA until you have worked ONSITE. you don't know what you are talking about.

Is Pro-E the best CAD? no. Is it the best CAM? no. Is it the best CAE? no Is it the best CAV? no

These are not the right questions.
The question is what other software does all of these things as well as Pro-E.
The question for this rant is does Solidworks do all these things as well.
The answer is NO (it does not even do all these things)

So use this info and go make more MONEY.

Good lucky and have fun.
 
I need to learn Pro/Man sometime. I have CNCed a handful
of parts with Catia, but have not use Pro yet. We have
Pro/Man here, but I don't have anyone that will let me
play around with their CNC machine. I guess I need more
rich friends.

There is also a group developing DIY rapid prototyping:
http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome
 
Solidworks is not a CAM system. There are afew companies that provide CAM systems that run in the Solidworks environment; CAMWORKS, and SOLIDCAM to name two. Although SOLIDCAM is nothing more than a old hashed over CAM systemwith the ability to runwithin SOLIDWORKS. Itdoes not use the feature recognition, and it does not save the CAM portion of the file within the Solidworks file format.


If someone was trying to program a part using Solidworks it would have take forever; can't be done. Nevertheless, if they wereusing CAMWORKS, and it took them longer to programa part then it did using PRO NC, there's something seriously wrong.


On simpleparts (all 2,1/2-d; prismatic work)the feature recognition in CAMWORKS would have created the program with one click of the mouse, which would have left the following to be done: selecting a part zero, coordinate system set-up, tool selection,machining strategies, and posting. All ofthe latter tasksare easier and faster to do the the SolidWorks environment then in Pro NC.


Of all the mid to upper-end CAM systems, PRO NC is the weakest, not to mention that you have to use it with PRO-E. I frankly see no benifit in using PRO-NC even in a place that uses it for design; associativity is a myth in the real world.It only works as long as theinternal ID forall the features in a model remain the same. For example, delete one extrude featureand rebuild it, even with the same sketch, and you get new internal ID, which negatesassociativity. PRO-NC has a couple of nice CAM features. For example, VOLUME is an excelent machining strategy when used for roughing. But, in over-all capabilities,PRO-NC is aboutthe same asBOBCAD/CAM, which cost about $1500 on sale.


As far as 3-d file transfers, the standard in america is IGES. In Europe, it is STEP. Both formats are widely used throughout the world. STEP though, has one huge benifit for the future.A standard has been defined for direct file transfer to CNC controls; a future with no more posting is coming. If your CAM system is based on the PARASOLID KERNAL, ask for part models in PARASOLID FORMAT (X_T or X_B extension) If it is ACIS, ask for files inACIS KERNAL format(SAT or SAB). These two 3-d kernals cover virtually the whole 3-d world. There are only a handful of crackpots still using their own 3-d kernals; PRO-E being one of them.





For those who don't understand how CNCs work; not all CNC controls operate onone universal language. Just like the people in the world don't all speak the same language.Each CNC control manufacturer goes their own way when it comes to defining code standards and interpeting codes.For example,EIA 274 loosely defines g-code programming language,but nobody is forced to use it. Nor, do machine types interpet program code the same.A G98 on a Fanuc mill control is not the same as a G98 of a Fanuc lathe control. For these reasons, CAM systems have to POST-PROCESS a program file (CAM systems used to actually create intermiedate file code) to create a text based program in a language the control will read and interpet correctly.


Having shopped recently for new a CAM system,I found NX-CAM to be, hands-down, the best, and most advanced,system offered today. For an old MasterCam man I was shocked at how well thought out it was; its capabilities are as good if not better than MASTERCAM's, and ease of use is in line with using Solid Edge of SOLIDWORKS - very intutive.You don't have to buy a seat of NX or Solidedge to use it either. UG sells it as a stand alone module, or you can get it with NX or Solid Edge if you want. They don't advertise their feature recognition capabilities, but they are almost as good as those in CAMWORKS, and for less money too. For a new product from an old CAM system company (yes, the original 2-d and 3-d electronic modelers were for CNC programming, not making prints), UG got this right.
 
Metoo,


If someone was trying to program a part using Solidworks it would have take forever; can't be done.





A "part" is ageneral term.


Which is it ? Can't be done or take forever?
 
Well the lay offs are starting in our company - lost my manager today. So as we rant and rave about platforms...... reality is hitting us , and all around us! I still say the one that can run Pro, SW, Inventor, ACAD, CADAM, CadKEY.....can adapt to any change will win....... I definetely would rather talk about strip joints in Florida right now. I guess it does not matter what platform is the best, as long as Obama saves all of our jobs
smiley2.gif
 
vester;


You can't create a CNC program with SOLIDWORKS; that's what it is. If someone is claiming they saw another person doing so, they were in error; that's what it is. If you can't do something, but continue to try, it would take forever; that's what it is.


Quoted from above:


"The reason is that Solidworks does not have a CNC Modal. What they have is a CAM partner (to many problems). The problems start with just being able to cleanly program even some of the most simple shapes(no reflection on the programmer) its the software(as stated earlier)."


Probably the best selling CAM system used with Solidworks is CAMWORKS. Simple shapes are programmed automatically witha mouse click in CAMWORKS, and it works "cleanly". The difference between the two systems in programming the same part is that you'd be setting-up the coordinate system in PRO-NC when CAMWORKS was posting.


I've been programming CNC equipment since 1975, and have used most CAM systems on the market up through the current ones; CAMWORKS and NX-CAM are the fastestgraphics based CAM systems for creating CNC program code. Parts that take an hour to program in PRO-NC can be programmed in a fewminutes in CAMWORKS and NX-CAM.





In America, today, where lot sizes are small and delivery time is king, anyone using PRO-NC to program 2,1/2-d (prismatic) work is a fool. FeatureCAM, CAMWORKS, and NX-CAM are the best I've seen for creating programs quickly.
 
Glen,


Good luck, hope your job stays safe!!!


How's it looking for everyone else out there?


We laid off 40 people this time last year but for some strange reason we have had the best 3 months sales in ages and we can't get product out the door quick enough. Over 50 workers have now signed up to increase their shifts to 12 hours from next week. We're linked directly to the building industry so how long it will last I don't know since building has pretty much come to a standstill here.
 
The managers that don't use tools like Pro/E and Soldworks are usually the first to go. We know here because of the number of calls from laid off managers.... they call us for training after they get the axe.

Sales numbers can't hurt. Caterpillar had a record year last year and let a hole bunch of contractors off. My hunch is they start hire TN visas again starting in the spring and again with contractors two months after.

The CAM discussion is interesting!
Edited by: design-engine
 
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